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Post by japaneseteeth on Dec 30, 2017 2:22:07 GMT
Yeah, I had to give my mom a bit of a refresher before we went to see it because she was getting some of the plot points of TFA and Rogue One mashed up. As far as this movie goes, my guess is that in the immediate future it's going to be divisive due to so many of unconventional decisions it made, but will probably improve in the long term, kinda like Empire did. Mainly because while the story progression is a bit iffy, the thematic aspect of it is actually really solid and cohesive despite the other issues. That said, a lot of it will depend on how the third movie in the trilogy is; if it picks up on the right plot points and provides a solid close to the trilogy, at worst TLJ will get hit with "it was an eh middle installment" syndrome, and if the third one capitalizes on it, it'll probably look a lot better in hindsight.
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Post by Applelight Limited on Dec 30, 2017 3:04:58 GMT
Yes, that’s a great way to explain it. We can’t really judge it until the third instalment comes out and we’ve seen the end result. As a stand alone movie, it was perfectly acceptable to me.
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Post by japaneseteeth on Dec 30, 2017 6:04:50 GMT
I saw it again today and I think it holds up pretty well. I'm going to try to break down what I view as the movie's overall pros and cons:
Pros: * One of the first Star Wars movies where I legitimately didn't know how things were going to play out. * Real plot twists with Snoke dying and Rey not being related to the Skywalkers * Mark Hamill's performance as Luke * The "Hyperspace Ram" sequence * Yoda appears * Exploring the more mystical side of the Force and how it affects people * Overall solid themes about learning from failure, and defining yourself with what you love rather than what you hate * The lightsaber battle between Rey and Kylo and Snoke's guards
Cons: * Pacing: felt like they tried to cram a bit too much into one movie * The Casino/Codebreaker subplot: some good thematic material, but in general went on for longer than it needed to * Plot quibble that Holdo could've just told Poe what the plan was * Snoke's death would've had more impact if we knew a bit more about who the heck he was * Phasma went down like a punk again * Some of the humor was a little bit misplaced
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Post by Mezzaphor on Dec 31, 2017 3:46:07 GMT
* Plot quibble that Holdo could've just told Poe what the plan was * Snoke's death would've had more impact if we knew a bit more about who the heck he was For the first: I think that could have been fixed easily with a bit of dialogue about the possibility of a First Order mole among the Resistance. Heck, even with exactly zero dialogue about that, I wondered if that was where the movie was going once General Hux said he had the Resistance "on the end of a string". Holdo doesn't even need to suspect Poe Dameron specifically (besides, his loyalty is pretty much beyond suspicion). She just could have said something like, "Yes, I have a plan, flyboy, but it's not a good idea to tell you right now. I have reason to think someone on this ship is selling us out to the First Order. How else could they track us through hyperspace? So the fewer people know what I'm planning, the safer we are." And Poe still isn't convinced, thinking maybe Holdo is herself the mole, and the story otherwise plays out the same. As for the second: That's very true, but I also think the lack of info about Snoke is as much the fault of The Force Awakens as this movie. I'm imagining JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson bickering afterwards: "Hey, where'd you put Snoke's backstory in your movie again?" "I though you were bringing Snoke's backstory!" "Well, I thought you were bringing it!" "I specifically said, 'Make sure you don't forget to explain what Snoke's deal is, because I'm certainly not going to.'" "I never heard you say that!"
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Post by japaneseteeth on Dec 31, 2017 4:08:44 GMT
Yeah, I was wondering about the Mole angle too, and I was surprised they didn't at least mention the idea, since it would've solved the problem pretty neatly. Poe is just the type to go "I can't believe you're questioning the loyalty of your soldiers" or whatever. Bonus points if it turns out there is a spy.
Similar deal for Snoke; even a few lines of dialogue about how he was kicked out of the Jedi Order back in the day or something would've gone a long way toward giving him a bit more cred before killing him off.
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Post by Applelight Limited on Dec 31, 2017 6:05:06 GMT
See that right there? That’s the problem with having two heads in charge. I’m also slightly peeved about the death of admiral holdo. OK it was an amazing way to go out, but I really think that she should have lived to see another day. This movie should have been about the previous characters passing on the torch, but alas an interesting one is cut short, in finest Star Wars tradition.
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Post by japaneseteeth on Dec 31, 2017 21:21:28 GMT
It mainly annoyed me because I think it would've been a better sendoff for either Admiral Ackbar or even Leia. I can understand why they didn't do the latter, but come on.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Dec 31, 2017 23:07:35 GMT
See that right there? That’s the problem with having two heads in charge. To be honest, I don't mind that much. If it's a choice between one extreme or the other, I prefer Lucasfilm's approach to these sequels over the Marvel Studios approach. If the individual films are good, I'm willing to overlook some continuity hiccups. And even back when there was just one guy in charge of Star Wars, there were still inconsistencies, because George Lucas kept changing his plans for the future of the series. If you mean replacing Vice Admiral Holdo's entire role in the movie with Admiral Ackbar, I don't think it would work. Poe Dameron—and the audience—has to distrust whoever it is that takes charge of the Resistance while General Leia is comatose. If it's Admiral Ackbar, beloved hero of the Battle of Endor, telling the Resistance to Stay The Course, then Poe's gonna trust him. Or if Poe does suspect Ackbar is a traitor, the audience will either think Poe's being paranoid, or they'll call it an out-of-character moment. In order for that whole subplot to work, it really needs to be a new character in Holdo's shoes, not anyone the audience recognizes from the OT. I suppose you could keep Vice Admiral Holdo's role in the early part, but just have Admiral Ackbar step forward at the end to go down with the ship. But you'd need some careful writing to prevent it from looking like Holdo was planning to deliberately sacrifice someone else all along. (Also, Holdo would need to be a full Admiral, and there'd need to be some explanation why she takes command rather than Ackbar. Dude would have hella seniority.)
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Post by japaneseteeth on Jan 1, 2018 7:13:57 GMT
Yeah, that would be an issue with doing it that way. The best I could think of would be to have Ackbar himself make the call. Or maybe having him injured in the bridge explosion similar to Leia in that he's alive, but badly injured enough that his survival is in doubt anyway, so he offers to sacrifice himself. But yes, it would take some finagling to get it to work.
And yeah, I think Marvel is going overboard a bit with the continuity. I don't keep up with the movies that closely, so when I saw the Infinity Wars trailer, my first thought was more along the lines of "who are all of these people again?" My second thought was "wow, Thanos looks like a thumb when he doesn't have his helmet." I mean, it still looks good, but it feels like there's just too much going on in the franchise right now.
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Post by Applelight Limited on Jan 1, 2018 17:36:53 GMT
@ Mezza That’s true I guess! Having one head didn’t do the prequels any good. I still think Holdo should have survived but I admit that it would require an extensive rewrite of the story. Which, now that I think about it, is a bad sign. But I still like TLJ. Want to stress that.
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Post by Kyler Thatch on Jan 2, 2018 20:41:28 GMT
Mental image of Ackbar being the one to do the suicide charge instead of Holdo.
"It's a trap!" *activates hyperdrive*
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Post by Applelight Limited on Jan 3, 2018 21:52:49 GMT
That would have been an awesome way for him to go.
Would it have been ok for Ackbar to still die on the torpedo attack on the bridge but with more dignity? To get a casual mention just feels so unfair.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Jan 4, 2018 1:22:55 GMT
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Post by japaneseteeth on Jan 5, 2018 5:15:38 GMT
I can definitely buy that that's what they're going for, and for the most part they pulled it off pretty well... aside from the aforementioned quibble that there's no justifiable in-universe reason why she wouldn't inform at least some of the others on the ship as to what the plan is. They really should've plugged that hole, because having the plans not filter down the chain of command doesn't exactly speak well to someone's leadership ability.
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Post by Applelight Limited on Jan 9, 2018 3:56:49 GMT
I still think it was a shame that Snoke only amounted to a plot device rather than a full character. Although having said that, was the Emperor any different during the prequels?
Also I’ve been thinking about those resistance bombers. I actually really like their design and method, but I also think that they’re weirdly a step backwards overall. Compare them to the Y-Wing for example. I can’t help but feel like they are the kind of thing the prequels should have had, to sell the clone wars as the WW2 of this universe.
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